Episode 01: “What else can I do?” Encanto with Samantha Thomas
Episode Overview
In the inaugural episode of 'Epilogues and Epiphanies', host Lyndsey McPherson and guest Samantha Thomas delve into the themes of Disney's 'Encanto', exploring the complexities of family dynamics, the Enneagram personality types, and the importance of self-discovery and emotional health. They discuss how trauma shapes relationships, the roles individuals play within families, and the significance of acknowledging and addressing ruptures in relationships for healing and growth. Through their conversation, they highlight the beauty of embracing messiness and the journey of understanding oneself and others.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Epilogues and Epiphanies
01:05 Exploring the Enneagram and Personalities
02:07 Character Dynamics in Media
04:01 In-Depth Analysis of Encanto
06:55 Understanding Family Roles and Dynamics
10:41 The Role of Trauma in Family Relationships
12:05 Bruno: The Truth Teller of the Family
17:49 Sisterly Bonds and Expectations
20:37 Louisa: The Weight of Expectations
28:15 Isabella: The Cost of Perfection
32:08 The Journey of Self-Discovery
38:35 Embracing Messiness and Compassion
40:05 The Importance of Naming Ruptures in Relationships
Transcript
**Host: Lyndsey McPherson** (00:06)
Hi everyone, and welcome to the very first episode of *Epilogues and Epiphanies*, a show where we'll explore questions about life, the universe, and what it means to be human, all through the lens of TV and film. I'm your host, Lyndsey McPherson. This week, my guest is Samantha Thomas, a self-proclaimed Enneagram 9 therapist. I adore her, and I think you will too.
Before we dive in, a couple of quick notes: today's episode is all about *Encanto*, so if you haven't seen it yet, definitely check it out before listening. We also reference the Enneagram frequently, so if you're less familiar with it, a quick Google search on the different types might be helpful. But remember, don't Google while driving—P.S.A. done! Without further ado, welcome to our first episode. Here we go!
**Lyndsey McPherson** (01:11)
I'm excited but also a little clueless, and that's totally fine. Honestly, I'm just thrilled to chat with you, Sam.
**Samantha Thomas**
Same here! I’m ready for it. I even made a whole page of notes. It’s amazing. I started putting together a rubric, and then I thought, “Okay, Samantha, maybe you need to channel other parts of your Enneagram.”
**Lyndsey McPherson**
Oh, you’re in good company! Everyone, this is Sam. She’s a therapist, and we met back in grad school, which feels like forever ago. We have so much to cover today.
**Samantha Thomas**
So, a little about me: I'm an Enneagram 9, but I’ve leaned heavily into my wing 1. I didn’t have much of my wing 8 in the past, but marrying someone who’s an 8 has really brought that side out. It’s been a good balance, especially as I’ve grown in my therapy practice—sometimes you need to embrace uncomfortable moments and hard truths.
**Lyndsey McPherson**
Oh, that sounds like a journey. So cool. When you consume media, what kind of themes are you drawn to? Anything you always find yourself hooked on?
**Samantha Thomas**
I’m very into relationship dynamics. Anything with complex relationships catches my attention. I think that’s something Disney has really improved upon over time. They’ve become heavy hitters lately, *Encanto* included.
**Lyndsey McPherson**
Yes! So, what are we talking about today?
**Samantha Thomas**
*Encanto*! I was so excited for this one. I feel like Disney has been heading in this direction—like with *Inside Out*—bringing in a lot of relational and psychological elements. *Encanto* took that to the next level.
**Lyndsey McPherson**
Absolutely. For anyone living under a rock, *Encanto* came out in December 2021. The music is by Lin-Manuel Miranda, and it’s incredible. It’s one of those movies where you think, “This is nice,” and then it gut-punches you with emotion.
**Samantha Thomas** (03:32)
Right! It’s like a musical, probably because Lin-Manuel Miranda wrote the music. It feels like you could see the characters on stage. It’s about a multi-generational family, all with magical gifts—except for Mirabelle, the main character. We follow her journey as she navigates how unresolved trauma is affecting the family dynamic. It's a colorful, fun, and deeply complicated story.
**Lyndsey McPherson**
So true. It’s light, colorful, and complicated. And the characters, like Mirabelle’s aunt, have these strange “gifts” that seem more like burdens—like controlling the weather based on emotions.
**Samantha Thomas**
I have such a soft spot for that character. She reminds me of the sensitive family member who can’t hide their emotions. Her stress becomes everyone’s problem, which I think is relatable.
**Lyndsey McPherson**
Yes! What did you find interesting or weird about *Encanto*?
**Samantha Thomas**
Watching it again, I noticed how the characters resonated with different stages of my life and people I care about. Disney did a fantastic job allowing each character to grow in complexity. Even the perceived “villain,” Abuela, has layers. That scene by the river? Gut-wrenching.
**Lyndsey McPherson** (08:23)
Yes, the scene where Abuela finally shows her vulnerability was so powerful. It’s like we couldn’t get back to the river—the place of their origin—until the rock split open, symbolizing the need for confrontation and healing.
**Samantha Thomas**
Exactly. And you really have to cultivate compassion for Abuela. She’s just trying to keep the family together, but her grip becomes too tight. It's a familiar theme in life: holding onto something for the sake of preserving it, even when it’s no longer serving its purpose.
**Lyndsey McPherson**
And then there’s Bruno—let’s talk about him! He’s kind of like the seer of the family, confronting truths no one wants to face. The magic is like, “If you’re not going to listen to Bruno, things are going to get serious.”
**Samantha Thomas**
Right! Bruno’s role as the seer is heavy. And when Mirabelle and Bruno finally meet, it’s such a profound moment. Mirabelle, like Bruno, sees things clearly, but her perspective is more relational. She’s open to understanding everyone’s struggles, even when it’s tough.
**Lyndsey McPherson** (14:03)
Yeah, it’s like Mirabelle is the emotional and relational seer for the next generation. When she meets Bruno, it’s almost as if he’s trying to prevent her from becoming the scapegoat, like he was. Their connection felt really meaningful to me—two seers working together to save the family.
**Samantha Thomas**
It’s beautiful. It shows that everyone is complex and multifaceted, even though they’re often confined to one role or identity in the beginning. Mirabelle’s journey of discovering her family members' true selves brings out the messiness and complexity in all of them.
**Lyndsey McPherson**
Yes! And by the end, everyone’s a bit messy—literally and metaphorically. It’s such a vibrant and meaningful story.
Sure, here’s the cleaned-up version:
---
**Lyndsey McPherson (16:21.378):**
"Oh, something's off here, and it really deserves our attention. That is such a heavy thing to put in a kid's movie. Seriously, though, all the stuff in this movie is like— but also, I just literally like— you're talking about Bruno leaving so that he doesn't reveal something about Mirabel that would make her not a part of the family. Yes. And he's behind the scenes though, still covering up the cracks. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, oh, I didn't think about that. You know, like this thing is breaking and he's still trying to hold it together. I just— yeah, it's so interesting. And she's like, 'No, no, I'm going to figure this out, and you're coming home.' And he's just hoping like, 'All right, just leave me alone, try to save the day if you can.' But she's determined."
"Here at Epilogues and Epiphanies, we are fans of transparency and learning new things. That means sometimes, the first time we try something, it doesn't always go according to plan. Our video call cut off a little bit, and we lost a bit of conversation flow. So please jump back in with us as we pick up talking about the sisters. Mainly, I was starting to think about the sisters."
"If those are the seers of the family, like kind of, you know, you mentioned how everyone gets a little more complex as we go. And I think the first sister she talks to is Luisa. Luisa? Yes. Oh my goodness, Luisa. Could you relate to her? Ugh, that song was unnecessary."
**Lyndsey McPherson (18:16.194):**
"Just sitting here trying to watch a Disney movie. Lin-Manuel Miranda did not need to punch me in the gut. Yeah, I'm so curious how it resonated. It was just like a lot of things, like things I had thought about, but not on a level that he goes into, because like I'm trying to even think of the words. There's a tendency for types— like, so I'm a One— and like my tendency of being a perfectionist is something that society really likes. Absolutely. So reinforced. It is so reinforced. So growth is fun when everyone is telling you, 'No, actually we like it when you're burning the candle at both ends' or 'We prefer you hyperproductive; it's good for us. Please hold everything together.'"
"Please hold everything together. But there's also a tendency to, like, it's really hard to not want to wear that almost like a, like a cape really. And she kind of starts off there, she's like, 'Listen, I do all the big stuff. The things on my list, you couldn't even touch.' And, right. Which is literally true in the movie. Literally no one else can lift what she lifts. Yeah. She just kind of goes through all this stuff and, you know, the right thing is to help people, to be of service. And to some degree, that's true, but not just unfettered. It drives you into the ground, losing yourself. Yeah. The words that he says, 'It'll never stop.' Lin-Manuel is a little more specific in his song lyrics than some of the normal Disney stuff. Like, he'll really get into it with the story. I mean, I'm the older sister."
"Give it to your sister, your sister's older. Give her all the stuff. And then this idea of your identity being so tied to what you've been tasked with in the family is so, ugh. And I'm learning that we all have scripts, and we play them wherever we go. Like wherever we go. And it's, oh, it's so annoying. And I love how that's captured in the movie too, that these aren't just rules within their homes. These are roles that they're known by in their entire community. Yes. Yeah. The whole community, those are scripts that follow them. Just like the older sister, you can handle it script followed you. And I witnessed that during our, like, internship time together. They're like, 'Lyndsey's got it. She can figure it out.' They send you the hard cases and you've got it. Yes. Yeah."
"I can see you overlapping with Luisa in her role in the family. Yeah. I also love Mirabel again showing up. It's like she just pokes the bubble and is like, 'Are you okay?' And then ends with kind of sobbing and hugging her. I just needed to say all that. And Mirabel's like, 'Yeah, you don't have to do this.' I just thought this whole time as Mirabel is comforting her sister that Mirabel is way more valuable than a little kid that can call a toucan to the dinner table. Like this whole nervousness about the next kid getting a gift and then we're so happy he got one, and I'm like, really? Is it helpful? I don't know. I don't know yet. Like he's got like a groundhog at the dinner table again and whatever. Yeah."
"And I think that's so interesting that you bring that up too— very much the way the family is introduced to us. We're thinking about the helpfulness and the value of the gifts to the community and to the family. And this just popped into my head, like, is that the purpose of the gift or any of the gifts? Is it solely to be helpful? Yeah. I don't know. What if some of the gifts are just for enjoyment?"
**Lyndsey McPherson (22:59.09):**
"I don't know. What if that could be true? Right. We start off with telling the community, 'This is what everyone does and this is how it's helpful and useful.' Yes, she says the little kid with the coffee cup is screaming at her at the beginning of the song. And he says, 'What's your gift? What do you do?' And it's like, it's kind of this idea of, you know, what's the first thing someone asks you when they meet you? Like, what's your name? And contribution to society. Absolutely. And it's in this Luisa song too. Like she says something about, 'If I could, like, if I could shake this pressure, would that make more room for joy and relaxation?' Yeah, like, but I don't know how to do that. Or I don't know what that's about. And she just kind of goes, so unpracticed for her. Society will try to make everything useful and earned. And I think, you know, there's so much value in learning to love and accept things for what they are. And for who people are, you know, there's not really a purpose to lightning bugs. But they're awesome. And I'm so glad they are. There's things that don't themselves contribute to the efficiency or the productivity of society. But if everything did, I don't know that it would work. I feel like they give meaning to the work and to why are we existing? Why are we— I think the things that feel meaningless hold a lot of meaning in the end."
"And maybe that makes— what is his name again? The little boy in the cute white suit. Antonio. I've watched this so many times. I know all their names. That's amazing. Yeah, maybe that makes Antonio's gift really valuable. It's in the way that the aunt's gift is to kind of be a temperature gauge for what's going on. It's not really useful in terms of productivity."
**Lyndsey McPherson (25:23.89):**
"But it's kind of this drawing attention back to bigger life things. That aunt, Pepa, she really stands out to me as someone who would sort of be like the identified patient in the family. That the family would be like, 'Oh, we've got everything together. Luisa's so strong. Isabella is so perfect. And like, everyone's got their thing.' Pepa just cannot get it together. And so we need you to fix her and individual therapy when really it's like, 'Ah, this family system, there's something off here. You all are missing each other.' And this aunt is the gauge. Like you were talking about, like the temperature gauge of something needs our attention. That absolutely would happen."
"No, that's— and I mean, this family, like we've kind of said so far, just really needs to breathe together a little bit. It's such a good word. Breathe. Yeah. Grandma needs to breathe a lot. Grandma is— I feel like Luisa is kind of the physical version of the emotional family version of grandma because she's like, interestingly made, she's like a brick house. Like she is like, you can't touch her, she's holding it all together for everyone. And Grandma's doing that. She's death-gripping. And the interesting thing, back to your, like, the aunt character, what we and most of society, I would hope knows by this point, is death-gripping, trying to keep your anxiety together and under control. You know what that does? It's like shaking the pot bottle. Like, it is such a complex story."
"It's so— so many threads. So many threads. Everyone kind of gets their moments. I wasn't really paying attention because they talk so fast in that first song. Like, I had to put on the captions. It's a lot. When Mirabel says, 'Isabella grows a flower and the town goes wild.' She's singing it nice and normal, but she's saying like, 'I don't get what the big deal is,' you know? And that whole dynamic, that their relationship making peace."
**Lyndsey McPherson (27:47.026):**
"Because Isabella's kind of— she's a poster child. Like, if
Luisa is the armor, the, like, toughness of the family. Yes. Like, Isabel is the— you know, the— what is the word I'm looking for? Like the ideal. The ideal. Yeah. The like on the brochure version of the family. Yes. We have it all together. We look so good and pretty. We are a walking, living Pinterest board. I'm going to post this to my Instagram. You can't see the piles of dishes behind my camera. It's exactly it. But that's what— yes. And Mirabel just starts getting a little deeper with her."
Lyndsey McPherson (27:47.026)
because Isabella's kind of, she's a poster child. Like if Mirabella is the black sheep, like Isabella's the bright white hope of furthering the generations. Yeah, she was the character that so much, so many years of my life, I resonated with. When the movie got to her song, I literally just sobbed. I had to pause the movie and cry so hard. My husband walked through the room and he was like,
what is going on in here? And like, perfectionism and holding it together for the family. And he's like, wow, there must be a lot in this movie. And I was like, yeah, I need to pause and cry for a while longer before I hit play again. But wow, what a character. What a character. Ugh, this whole idea of what else can I do? And it's so colorful. And the imperfect that she made is this adorable little cactus. But prickly.
So important. I've watched the YouTube video for the song over and over and over and over again. What else can I do? Because it just speaks to me so much and I've read so many comments. Would it be okay if I read one of the comments that I think captures it so well? Oh yeah, absolutely. I don't know who to credit this to because it's randomly a YouTube comment, but whoever's- Random YouTuber.
We appreciate you. Absolutely. You can probably Google it and find it. But it says, as much as Louise's song tugs fiercely at my heartstrings, the song, a more subtle echo of the same plight, is the saddest song in the movie. It's upbeat, high-energy tempo, and pretty imagery, making you neglect to notice. It's telling a story about a girl who never stood a chance of getting to be anyone other than the role she was shoehorned into. It tells of how she's never had a say in who she gets to be. It was just decided for her.
And she was so convinced that the very fate of the family hinged on the impossible ideal she needed to uphold, that she was going to throw herself into a life she knew she would be bitterly unhappy in and even never even questioned it. Never once questioned if this was really what she wanted until Mirabelle helps her see. Because of her happiness, her happy witness was never even a factor to her. This, this isn't from a place of pure selflessness though, but from a deep-sitted-
Lyndsey McPherson (30:01.39)
seated sense of duty and responsibility, obligation to the family, responsibility that she even herself expected. She had convinced herself that this was what she wanted because whatever is good for the family is what perfect Isabella would, should, want. The same is of course...
said for Louisa, who is defined by her abilities and her attitudes, and she tributes them to her value. But Louisa is conscientious of her fears, her insecurities, her weaknesses, and in that same vein, her hopes and dreams. She's emotionally vulnerable and knows herself intimately. Isabella does not. These are imperfect characteristics that she's not allowed to have, because anything less than perfect is not allowed to exist within her.
If you had to play the role of someone who's flawless and beyond reproach for most of your life, eventually remnants of that persona would amalgamate with who you really are. This happened to Isabella to the extent that she could not recognize who she was anymore. What was so entrenched in this persona she crafted for herself that she wasn't even aware of it. Her song is an anthem of someone who has long forgotten who they are.
finally discovering theirself again and coming home to theirself. But years later than they ever should have been, it's a melancholic victory in the sense that it begs the question, who would Isabella be if she was simply allowed to be herself from the beginning? Because yes, she changes and comes into her own light of the powers evolving, but even that is defined by her abilities. What could I do if I
knew it didn't need to be perfect, it just needed to be, and they'd let me be. It is by far the saddest swear word, I don't know if you allow swear words on here, line in the whole movie. I think the point of this expectation of perfection and expectations of others, and overlapping with like Enneagram 9 of loss of ability to see self or never...
Lyndsey McPherson (32:08.278)
developing the ability to see yourself. Yes. But I think this character is just like so devastating to not see yourself, to not know yourself, to not know who that is. And no one really wants you to in the family, it's not really allowed. So that set of comments just like, oh, it's just like a gut punch. Oh my gosh, that was.
So I need to find this person. They need to be a guest. Yes. Like they need to join the squad here. Yeah. Wow. That was, they drilled all the way down on thoughts about that song because it is so like she's old enough to be like getting married and just realizes I can make something other than a rose. I can be different.
I can be prickly, I can be complicated, I can be messy, I can be ugly if I want to. There's space for all of it, but never having that lens turned back on herself to be able to really see herself. I think that's such a devastating part of her character and also something that in the past, less healthy versions of myself as an Enneagram nine, I could so relate to, like the being asleep.
And that can look a lot of different ways that can look like meeting everyone's expectations and excelling. Yeah. And at the same time, not being alive inside of yourself. I think that idea of being asleep for not. Yes. Is the one that like is so, so vivid and crushing to think about. It's hard. I would imagine being asleep.
you don't know what you don't know even and but you know something's not right you're kind of grasping for that pseudo piece yeah a little bit it's so like
Lyndsey McPherson (34:22.142)
it's hard for the people going through it and it's also hard like watching it and I also think it's really interesting like you know she's not alo- you're saying that Isabella wasn't allowed to be prickly or these things or imperfect. What went down between Mirabelle and Isabella because Mirabelle gets along with everyone, why are they like this, this is very offbeat for the rest of the family. They're-
is a messiness to Mirabelle's existence because it's just outside of the parameters. Absolutely. I was just thinking that. And so yeah. Yes. That would that would poke the bubble for sure for Isabelle or Isabella. Yes. Yeah, there's so much there that like a younger version of me that really relates to being like more of an asleep nine. But being like
the person who has it all together. And maybe some three, like achieving, those are things that really like soothed the family system and like reassured everyone that everything is fine. I do have a sister who, she is a lot more like 70. She has a lot of like playful, silly, messy, fun, goofy, unrestrained, catches people like off guard kind of personality characteristics.
younger, less healthy, like nine me who really mirrored Isabella. I feel Isabella's almost jealousy of what would it be. Here I am, holding it all together, empty on the inside, like it's just cold on the inside, and somebody's being silly and unrestrained and uninhibited and having fun?
ticks you off. Yes, there's like a longing, but there's especially like at less healthy level of nines, like, you don't know how to get out. Like I didn't know how to get out and wake up. I didn't have like a path out of the dark forest of being asleep. But I saw somebody in a clearing and they're having like a great time. So I could just imagine like the
Lyndsey McPherson (36:43.046)
Isabella really shining and shimmery and the poster child and the golden child and like getting a lot of like attention and respect and awe But at the cost of being like up on a pedestal like behind a glass isolated and cold and Mirabelle's like hugged and loved and not gifted in a way that this family really valued But she has all these intimate connections with everyone else in the family
except Isabella who has no real connections in the family, not even with herself. Ugh. Yeah. We've gone down a lot of trails, expectations and norms and not confronting things and what that did to this.
beautiful, strange cartoon magic family. I think what I take away from that conversation that we just had, but also from this movie, like I kind of said at the beginning, I try to really, when I catch myself thinking about that movie and I am like angry at Abuela, I try to practice that.
perspective of no, like she had her redemption moment and also like she was trying to, she was reckoning with some trauma and fear and trying to protect family in a way that like her brain was very justified and being very afraid and feeling like she had to grip and hold it all together. So I think for me watching this movie is.
I think my epiphany is permission to be messy and accept the messiness and struggle of others. It's so well done. It's like, I'm probably going to watch it a million more times. Because like you said, I was just always like learning something new or picking up on like a new idea. Yeah. No. I really like appreciated your...
Lyndsey McPherson (39:05.614)
perspective of, you know, saw yourself in certain characters at different times and like that. I think that's what this movie does really well by having such a big family is and, and like flushing out those characters so well, is there's something for everyone to relate to and tie into this idea of, I guess, forgiveness and compassion and just permission to be human.
human in a family. Yeah, I hear you. I think if I had, if I had an epiphany from this movie, I think it would be before the repairing and resolution, Mirabelle said what was true and made everyone uncomfortable. She made it aware that repair was necessary, that what has been happening
The current norms aren't working. And I think for me, I think especially in like my own growth, repairs have important components. And in order to have a repair, you have to admit that something is off, that there's something wrong, that there's been a rupture in the relationship. And then you can bring in like the compassion, which is so important, and stepping into the other person's perspective and like.
zooming out and getting a bigger picture of like where they're coming from and their intentions as well as their limitations. But naming that a rupture happened and that things aren't okay right now, that felt so important to me. And that can sometimes look like anger that can sometimes look like voicing that you're feeling hurt. For Mirabelle specifically, it was her
voicing her own hurt, naming the hurt of the family members around her, and voicing that she was mad that this is not okay. So like that building of tension, her saying, this is a real rupture, this is in need of repair. And then that making the space for the empathy and repairs and the restoration. So I think that's my epiphany from the movie is that you have to name there's a rupture.
Lyndsey McPherson (41:25.698)
that needs to be repaired in order to repair it. You can't fix a problem, you don't admit it exists. Yes, which so many of the rules, so many of the family members were expected to use their gifts to pretend like there were no problems. Yeah, we can't ignore problems. They will come find you. Yes, yes. For sure. Yes. Oh, that's so good. That's probably my epiphany. That's so good.
I don't know how to end this, but we've got like five minutes. I have no idea. Like, I don't know. What do you feel like you would want to say at the end of a podcast? Cause what I have to say is just thank you so much for coming. Like I knew this would be such a great conversation. Um, one because of the movie, but like mostly because of you. You are such a thoughtful, caring person. And obviously you have this.
perspective of all these family dynamics and like you have all the terminology and that kind of thing. So I knew it would be a really rich conversation. Thank you. And it was, and it was so fun. So fun. But yeah, thank you for being my first podcast guest. Again, it feels like such an honor and it's been so fun to do this with you. And I'm so excited to hear the other ones that you do.
Well, thank you so much. I hope we talk again soon, because this was so fun. It was so fun. Thanks for having me on. You are such a delight. And I'm so excited to see where this journey goes for you, a podcast hosting. We'll see. Welcome to my closet. Yes, such an honor. Have a great night.
Lyndsey McPherson (43:14.274)
Thank you so much for joining me for the first episode of Epilogues and Epiphanies. I hope you learned something new or maybe thought a new thought and that you will have the courage to see what else you can do and try new things and have grace for the other people in your life who are also trying new things and messy and complex just like you. Have a great week and hopefully I'll see you back here soon.
