"Are You Going to Go Into Battle Dressed Like a Cool Youth Pastor?" Spider-Man: No Way Home with Rick Lee James
Episode Description:
Lyndsey and special guest Rick Lee James discuss the Spider-Man saga in modern culture as well as grief and what it means to love our enemies.
Episode Transcript
Lyndsey: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome to episode 12 of Epilogues and Epiphanies, a show where we'll explore questions about life, the universe, and being human through the lens of TV and film. In today's episode, we'll be discussing Spider-Man. No way. Home with special guest Rick Lee. James. I know Rick from back in my youth group days, but he's a podcaster, singer, songwriter, pastor, chaplain runner.
Lyndsey: And all around just genuinely great human being and we get into some great conversations about grief, loving your enemies, as well as just why we as a society love telling stories with Spider-Man and them. So, without further ado, let's go. Thanks everyone for joining us again today. I'm talking to Rick Lee James.
Rick: All right, thank you for having me on today. My name is, as we've already said, Rick Lee James, and I am an ordained minister in the Church of the [00:01:00] Nazarene. I have been doing that for many years. My first love is music. I am a singer and songwriter and I've had many songs published over the years and I love.
Rick: Being able to share music, especially for the church. So, I do a lot of worship, music, and songs, but I also do a podcast and my, I have two podcasts actually. One is called Voices in my Head, the Ley James podcast, where I've had over 500 episodes and guests on that show. And we, I always just love having good conversations with people about a multiple.
Rick: Multiple topics. Oftentimes it's about things like you talk about on this show, whether it be movies, but sometimes I'll have actors on, sometimes I will have speakers and authors and we'll talk about everything from music, to movies, to books, and just, the reason I call it voices in my head is because it's whatever's.
Rick: Speaking to me at the time. And conversations I want to have. The other one is my Mr. Rogers podcast called Welcome to the Neighborhood. And I don't do that one very often. It is when an occasion [00:02:00] arises, but that is an outgrowth of this Twitter account that I run where I just quote, Mr. Rogers every day.
Rick: I love it so much and I enjoy doing it too. And it's just grown and grown, and it apparently is the largest Mr. Rogers presence online at this point, so Wow, that's awesome. Fun. S fun. Yeah, and it's nice. So whenever there's a Fred Rogers related, Media thing that's coming out, whether it be a new album, movie, or something like that.
Rick: Usually whoever it is, Sony Pictures or whoever reaches out. And so, we do podcast about whatever's going on with that. That's so cool. So, you're such a big deal and then Yeah. Oh, I'm such a big deal. No, not really. No, I just. Been very blessed to meet a lot of wonderful kind people of influence over the years.
Rick: And then the other thing that I'm doing currently is I felt like the Lord was really drawing me in to do something new ministry wise. And I couldn't understand why at the time, and I still don’t understand some days. Yeah. But I really felt. Called to chaplaincy. And healthcare [00:03:00] Chaplaincy specifically.
Rick: So, I started working on my master's and then was accepted into a residency program last August where I am now working full-time in a hospital until the end of this coming August, and then I'll be returning. To finish my master's program at Loyola University and their pastoral program there. So, I'm a very busy person with a lot of things going on.
Rick: You are? You are. But yeah, that's a little
Lyndsey: bit me. Yeah. And you always like, whenever I see your like early morning runs, I'm like, oh my gosh, he's, and that was a little bit why I was nervous to, I was like, I know you're a very busy person because I see you doing so many things. Yeah. And I was like, so if you have time, if you want to talk, but I was so glad you said yes.
Lyndsey: No, yeah, that's
Rick: fantastic. And I, if you don't mind, I, the most important thing about me, I would say, I just need to mention also I am a husband and a father, and that's w wonderful. Just, I love being a husband and a father, so I, I should add that on there or I'll kick myself.
Lyndsey: later. Yes. No, you've got [00:04:00] such a cute, fun family.
Lyndsey: And then I always just to connect the dots for people like. Why is she talking to this friend? So how do we know each other? If you want to,
Rick: yeah. Back years ago, whenever I was youth pastoring, and this has been a long time ago ‘cause I, I did it for about six years of my ministry, but I have been at the church where I'm at for 22 years now.
Rick: So that was the first six. That's so crazy. The first six years of my 22 years I was a youth pastor. Yeah. In the Church of the Nazarene. And you were a teenager at the
Lyndsey: time? I was a teenager. Probably ex. Exactly. For
Rick: those six years. Exactly. And so, I got to know you and I got to know your brother whenever we would have district events.
Rick: Yeah. And I just always thought the world of your family even stayed at your house. I don't know if you remember.
Lyndsey: that, but you did. Yeah, I remember that. Because we had a, it was like a re like a lock-in at our church or something. And you stayed at our house, and you came Because I remember you telling me.
Lyndsey: So, you like made a joke about, yeah, I got my shoes all muddy and then I went and jumped on your bed or something. And I don’t know why, but I was just [00:05:00] like, Okay, ma'am, whatever. Yeah, I was joking around. I was probably like 15 and I was like, I don't know what to make of this, ‘cause I, okay. I have a weird sense.
Rick: of humor.
Rick: Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. And your parents are wonderful and they just always, were so kind. So yeah. So, we go back ways. Yeah. But to get to talk to you now, all these years later, were mostly Twitter buddies at this point, but it's, yeah. Yeah. So good
Lyndsey: to see you. But it's fun. Yeah. It's so fun though. There's, you know how it is over the years, there's not always a lot of people that you like keep tabs on.
Lyndsey: Or feel maybe like you have much in common with, or that kind of thing. Especially me going from what was probably what, 16 to 32. So that's a way, yeah. That's a lot of life. But to feel like that, Y there's that shared history and stuff that we can still talk about and share about, I think is just really cool.
Lyndsey: And I was super excited that you said yes. I remember from back in those youth group days, you are being very into [00:06:00] Spider-Man, there were, I'm assuming probably Spider-Man T-shirts. Yeah. But I just remember we had conversations about Spider-Man. Yeah. Which at the time would've been Toby McGuire Toby. So, the movie in particular, obviously I, I think I want to talk a little bit about like Spider-Man overall.
Lyndsey: Because that's an interesting thought to me. My, my show is like trying to look at these big concepts and what can we learn about like ourselves, but like us as a people as well, like through this idea of story. And I think for me, what's interesting is we have told the Spider-Man story so many times in so many ways that I feel like it's worth. Like asking the question like, why that story? And I'm curious if you have any thoughts as to why you think we haven't told Thor really near as much. We haven't, like it's not just that we retell superhero stories ‘because we do, but Spider-Man is one that has been told in many forms.
Lyndsey: Yeah. Many ways. So much so that we had three actors playing him in this last movie that we're going to talk about. Yeah. Why do you think [00:07:00] we love this story? Or why do we keep.
Rick: telling it? Yeah. That's a really good question, and I guess I can only tell you why I like him particularly. Yeah. But I think it's probably a universal thing.
Rick: There's a lot of people say it's because he's so relatable. Which honestly, I think that is true because the character of Spider-Man, like all of the characters in the Marvel universe, they happen in the real world. Like it's in, in New York City instead of Gotham City or somewhere like in DC it's or Metropolis.
Rick: It's got real world places and you can actually go. To the neighborhoods that things take place in. While there's not real superheroes in the world, I think it's a point of pride for some people. I've even heard people say that are grew up in that part of the world, that they're like, oh yeah, this is the street where Spider-Man is from, and things like that.
Rick: So yeah, there is a little bit of That's cool. Of that relatability and he's got the same struggles that a lot of us do with money in school, and especially when he was a teenager. There was bullying that happened and all kinds of stuff. Yeah. So, there is a relatability, [00:08:00] but. One thing that I have noticed, especially since these days, I'm, I grew up in, in much more of a monocultural, like mostly white type background in my life.
Rick: These days I'm spending a lot more time in, in multicultural places and oftentimes I'm the minority and I find that when I talk to people about superheroes, ‘cause I'm just a big kid at heart. Oftentimes they will say Spider-Man was like their favorite one. Partially because Spider-Man wears this mask, and he can be anybody underneath there.
Rick: Yeah. So that's true. That's true. So, there is a sense like red and yellow, black, and white. It doesn't matter who you are. There's even a spider ham, which is a pig, which we know about from Right. The comics of the Cub. Pigs can be Spiderman, even animals can actually be Spider-Man. So, there is that. But it, on some level, I don't think that I.
Rick: Like Spider-Man for that reason, not because he is not relatable. He thinks, I think he is, but I think superheroes. I look at them more as [00:09:00] aspirational than re, than relatable. Like to me, yeah. The reason I like superheroes is not because like I look at them and I go, boy, aren't they like me? I look at them, right?
Rick: Yeah. And I'll think, oh my goodness. Look at their, there's something extraordinary about them that I hope maybe I could live up to in some ways. May, yeah, maybe I could be heroic for somebody in some way. And I think with. The character of Spider-Man that catchphrase that appears in the very first appearance we ever have of Spider-Man, an amazing fantasy 15, where we have with great power must also come great responsibility.
Rick: So, he's always been a character that examines the choices that we make. And that every action that we take has a reaction to it, and there are always consequences, good or bad. And really his whole character is based on, he's trying to make things right because his error in the very beginning, he didn't stop the thief that killed his uncle, and everything changed for him in his life.
Rick: And so, he's almost been a character that has been. [00:10:00] Driven by the fact that he made a mistake that he never wants to anybody to remake again. And so, he is trying. So, I, there's just a lot of complexity behind the character. Yeah, for sure. And deals with loss and tragedy and
Lyndsey: No, I think as you were talking, I was thinking, I was like having a.
Lyndsey: You were talking about aspirational and a lot of the theme in this movie, we have the other Spider-Man. Come in and they're a little bit farther along in their journey. They've experienced things, they've told there. First act of the story, if you will. And they're like worried about this, Peter, and they're trying to, again, prevent him from making the mistakes they've made.
Lyndsey: Even after that first mistake. Yeah. And I felt like the mistake or the journey they were trying to save him from was like this like bitterness. Yeah. Which I feel is the struggle for, I feel like today, especially with everything being, everything's so polarizing and it just feels it can be really exhausting and it's easy to just want to like [00:11:00] numb and not care and just be like, I can't anymore ‘cause it's just too much. Yeah. That I think that like resigned bitterness was what he's trying to say. It's not my, and they're saying, whoa, no, we can't go down that road. Trust me. It's not where you want to go.
Lyndsey: And so, I think. He's aspirational in that I think superheroes choose hope at and they choose to keep Trump. And I think that's one thing you talk about aspirational. I think that's, to me the, again, back to why I have these conversations is what can we learn from these characters, either what they did well or what they didn't do well.
Lyndsey: And I think what superheroes they do well is keep trying. And they keep trying to put other people first. We like these stories most of the time ‘because we can believe that we can make our world better and we can maybe be better. But I really felt like the theme here was, as they all intersected, at least of these live action tellings of spider were intersecting. It was like, don't let bad things make you bitter and make you bad. Yeah. Yeah.
Rick: And I [00:12:00] think too, and you're saying some good stuff, I think beyond. Some of the things we've already talked about too. I don't think all of the movies have gotten Spider-Man quite right. In some ways they have, they get different aspects.
Rick: Okay. But in the same way that I don't think a lot of the newer comic book writers aren't getting him right either in some ways, ‘because I've been reading Spider-Man comics for years and years. Yeah. But if you go back to the roots of why, I think in some ways there is such a draw to the character. Yes, he's the amazing spider-man.
Rick: You love him. And he has these corny dad jokes. I don't know what else to call him ‘because he is just constantly clipping and he's driving people insane. But he's covering up his anxieties with these cracking jokes all the way through. Like in, in the comics it's just joke and they're terrible jokes like the whole time.
Rick: And criminals are getting mad at him because you stop with the stupid joke, they're like annoyed. Yeah, exactly. But beyond there is such trauma. And loss that happens in spider. That's one reason that the movie we're about to talk [00:13:00] about, I really think is so significant and does a course correction for the character in a lot of ways and gets back to how he was created to be.
Rick: Because one thing we have a hard time dealing with is the fact that suffering is a very real part of life. And everybody suffers. And the fact that Spider-Man is a character that doesn't get spared from this suffering. There is some deep trauma that happens and yeah, for sure. And we understand why in some ways he's always so jokey and humorous.
Rick: I think in some ways he is trying to avoid. The pain and things like that. So
Lyndsey: yeah, keep me up here. Don't let me dip down here too long. It's scary. Yeah,
Rick: I don't want to stay down in that place. And this movie actually makes us go into that. As much as you laugh and have fun in the movie. It really takes you to some dark places too.
Rick: I just appreciate it on the level of, if we don't acknowledge those things, we're going to really be suffering and our suffering will lead to greater suffering if we can't at least acknowledge that's a part of what life is. [00:14:00] So that's a, that's an aspect that from the beginning, the character of Spider-Man has always embraced where the other heroes were getting all the celebrity and fame, and everybody loved the Fantastic four.
Rick: Spider-Man was just always getting dumped on, just constantly. It wasn't just death of people that he loved, but it was that darn jam. J Jameson. Yeah. J Jonah Jameson just hated him. He was Fox News of his day. Just being a downer.
Lyndsey: Oh my gosh. He was a fake news. He just all over the place. Yeah, no. What you're saying about Spider-Man's does not exempt from this.
Lyndsey: I think that's why I liked, we talked, my training is in counseling. There's. As a necessity for space for that. Because like you were saying, if you don't deal with it, it's not that it just goes away. I would always kind of use the analogy with like my clients, I don't know. For some reason I always imagine this in like a monster’s ink kind of way.
Lyndsey: So, this is a little weird, but you know how they had the simulator and there was like, the monsters were trying to walk through the room and there's like just toys everywhere and there's, [00:15:00] they're trying not to touch anything. Okay. Imagine it's a room like that and there's just stuff. Everywhere.
Lyndsey: And it's pitch black, and you've got to get to the other side of the room. You can try to like, keep muddling through and not have to look at how messy your room is. Or we can maybe try to turn on the light and we can try to look at these things. It's not going to maybe clean the room immediately, but you're going to be able to navigate around those things a lot better.
Lyndsey: Yeah. If that light is on, you're going to be able to see what's coming up and know those pitfalls a little bit. And it's, it doesn't make it go away, even if you deal with it, but it does make you have. A better handle on how you choose to show up in the world in spite of it. So
Rick: Yes, indeed.
Lyndsey: Yes. Yeah. And I, they do a great job in this story of, like you said, that being a part of his story, and I, one of the moments that's like my favorite and my least favorite is when his friends finally find him after he loses May.
Lyndsey: And they just gave that moment so much space. Yeah. In this movie [00:16:00] in a way that was like, A little bit like when I saw it in the theater, I was a little uncomfortable. Yeah. Because I was like, okay, I'm here to see a movie. Let's, yeah, I'm feeling too sad. Let's be done. But that's, they gave him such space to fall apart and like breath with them.
Lyndsey: Yeah. A little bit. Before they were like, okay, and now we're on to what's next in the story. And I thought that was really beautiful. Yeah. And
Rick: the, there's a lot to talk about in this film, but just thinking about what you just said about sitting in that uncomfortable place, think about two. Where we have been, not only as a country, but as a worldwide pandemic that happened.
Rick: And of course, I still see people every day in the hospital who are there suffering with Covid and, but, and yeah. And but to think of the time when this movie came out, especially, I can't remember exactly Yeah. The space of it, but I want to say it was at a time where it was the end of 21. Yeah. So, we had, we were in the thick of it.
Rick: And it's an interesting thing. Our country has not done well with. [00:17:00] Facing grief, but to lose over a million people that had the virus not been there we wouldn't have lost. So that's a lot of turmoil and a lot of suffering and a lot of grief. So, I think that adds power to that moment that they.
Rick: And a, and what people would probably think of is, oh, it's just a superhero movie. Yeah. The films are whatever we can we make of them. And it does depend on the narrative that they're telling. I'm not sure. Yeah. Most people even connected. I may not have even until this moment thinking about it, but one reason that was so powerful, a reason that me.
Rick: Even watching it again this time, there were several places that I was crying a little bit, like I was starting to tear up. With this movie. I'm like yeah and I didn't think it would affect me this way. It did the first time I saw it, but then to see it again, it was like, wow. And I don't think we've done a good job at all and helping our people.
Rick: Grieve through the loss that we've had. And so, when a film can capture that, [00:18:00] when it felt like it was so needed to just put some quiet moments in where a person can face the grief. There's a lot of people watching this movie who had been facing some very significant grief and trauma. Hit them in a big way.
Rick: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, there's just so much to unpack in all of this. Yeah.
Lyndsey: So, I think too, like you hit on something there that I thought was interesting and I know it's different in every like faith tradition the tradition of like how we structure like funerals and things like that. And I'm trying to think, I think it was maybe my uncle's funeral and he was Catholic.
Lyndsey: I just felt like there was a lot more space for people to be processing the grief in that moment. And having space for that. And the idea of this movie kind of being that for an audience, I think is really interesting and cool because people don't pause. But we do watch movies to make us feel things that we don't know how [00:19:00] to bring up and.
Lyndsey: Get out in a lot of ways. So, I think that's really interesting. This movie though. Is that idea of hope and belief that things and people can get better. And change. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. That whole, it's not my problem. This is just I'm going to ship it off. Like I don't want to deal with it.
Lyndsey: And then Dr. Strange, I think is the one that says it's their fate. You, it's who they are. You can't change that. Yeah. And then he says, but what if we could Yeah. And May is such a man. She is such a cool character. Her influence on him I think was also really cool. I know it's a deviation from the original.
Lyndsey: Yeah. With, we don't have Uncle Ben, but I think it's really. Cool. The influence that she has on him. And to see that dynamic at play a little bit in her, she calls him on the carpet like, Hey man, nope. You got to be better than this. And we all need those people in our lives. And even superheroes need those people in their lives.
Lyndsey: And [00:20:00] she's calling him to hope and to not like, just turn a blind eye to someone that needs you. And if you have the power to help, and you can, you should. Yeah. And yeah, I think that idea in my notes I had just like this. I think that's the whole thing. And I think that's why I hate cancel culture is, but what if someone's actually sorry.
Lyndsey: And we've just decided they're in the trashcan. Yeah. What's the point if we don't believe that someone can repent and change? What are we doing y'all? That's the whole, that's the whole thing, like Yeah. Is the capacity to grow and change and to help people do that and to allow people space to do that and yeah.
Lyndsey: And I think that was a big part of this movie was him saying, yeah, these are all crazy, very theatrical villains. Yeah. Doc A comes in and he is just, his severity was so jarring compared to the current Marvel movies. Yeah. He was so theatrical, but in a way that was like mesmerizing. Yeah. [00:21:00] But you he just.
Lyndsey: He had some demons. And he needed some help. Yeah. And so that was really what it came down to, was someone that could help reaching out to him. Yeah. And then he helps
Rick: them in the end. Yeah. Yeah. That's, it's a unique film in that it's not enough to defeat the bad guys. It's, we actually want to redeem them.
Rick: We want to find ways to bring them back. And I was wanting, we had talked about, and I don't want to take the direction of your show where you don't want to take it, but shall we stop and do a like a. Summary really quick, just so we can kind of Yeah, sure. Totally. Cause that way it might help us when we're having these conversations cause there's so much richness and we might just have to pick or choose a few to talk about.
Lyndsey: Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I feel like the plot is Spider-Man's kind of coming off of his last adventure. And Jay Jonah, Jameson and Mysterio have blown up his life. Uhhuh, they've outed him. Everyone knows who he is, and he's also spun the story that Spider-Man's the bad guy. And so now [00:22:00] everyone's out to get him in.
Lyndsey: This takes place. Pretty recently. So, cancel culture and your association with a negative persona is not a, is not okay. Yeah. And he and his friend, he's trying to get into college. They're really smart kids and they're just not getting in anywhere. Yeah. And one of the letters, at least that they read says something about, due to the controversy.
Lyndsey: So, he feels like he's ruined his life, but more importantly his friend's lives. Yeah. Who he really doesn't feel deserve it. He goes to. His magical friend, Dr. Steven Strange, and basically says, hey, is there anything we can do? And they try to try this spell, but Peter's actually, that's too severe. That would make my life hard, and I'd have to rehab those conversations.
Lyndsey: And he keeps interrupting and things go badly. And basically, there things break a little and there's cracks in the universes and. People who know Peter Parker, [00:23:00] spider-Man of any kind, kind of start seeping through the cracks. And so, there's all these crazy villains that are like out to get Spider-Man, but he's never met them before.
Lyndsey: Yeah. And so, then he's trying to figure out what's that's about. And Aunt May meets Dr. Norman Osborne. He is tortured by these, he's in one of his like more stable states. He's just feeling the weight of his. Mental split. Yeah. From all the stuff he's done to himself. Yeah. And Aunt May says, this man is lost.
Lyndsey: If they're all like this, you have to help them. Yeah. You can't just kick them back. And he says, it's not my problem. And she says, yeah, okay. That's not an okay response. We're better than that. And he decides he's going to try to help them. Steven doesn't want him to do that. They get into it a little bit through series of events.
Lyndsey: Everybody kind of breaks free. And then we meet the other Spider-Man. We meet the Toby McGuire and the Andrew Garfield Spider-Man, and they all kind of [00:24:00] tag team together, say they're going to heal these guys and before they send them back, they're going to make them whole. And they set out to do that.
Lyndsey: And then eventually, obviously along the way, the villains, there's lots of violence. Aunt may pass away at the hands of the green goblin. This kind of sets Peter on that path of, I don't want to care anymore, I just want to burn it all down. Yeah. And that's where the other guys try to not only support him in his mission, like action wise, but his MO mission, like emotionally to be like, yeah, hey, no, we can't go down that road.
Lyndsey: Eventually he does sacrifice himself in the only way they know how to save the day, which is erase Peter Parker and. Spider-man from everyone's memories. Yeah. So, he's all alone. No one remembers he exists. And that unfortunately, again, another sad ending movie is where we end. Yeah. She, I think the line at the end that got me was he asks [00:25:00] about the cut on her head and she says it doesn't really hurt anymore.
Lyndsey: And I, that line was where he decided, I'm not going to, yeah. I'm not going to try to reintroduce myself. I'm going to Re-injure you. And I was just like, Ugh. No, but you're all by yourself. And I just, so sad for him. But yeah, that was me trying to run through that plot a little bit for everyone.
Lyndsey: Yeah,
Rick: that's, that was pretty good. Yeah.
Lyndsey: I've done it a few times now, so I'm getting a little better at summing up. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think I, I'll, I won't say the word because it's non explicit podcast, but my favorite line might be, let's Scooby do this ish. Yeah. Like when he says, I need you and your friends to get on your phones and Scooby do this.
Lyndsey: Yeah. And I was like, that is perfect. That is exactly what this feels like right now. Yeah.
Rick: Awesome. Yeah. And this is going to be just a kind of a nitpicky thing, but. For me, the end of this movie corrects a lot for the Spider-Man character that I feel like the, [00:26:00] they are some of my favorite movies, but the most frustrating too, the last three recent ones that we've had, simply because they're almost trying to make Spider-Man into Ironman.
Rick: He's always got these. He's using Tony Stark's gadgets, tech, and gadgets. And part of the thing about him always in the comics until very recently where they did that in the comics recently too, and I stopped reading him for a while because it was just like, you've turned him into Tony Stark completely.
Rick: He's a millionaire now. And he is. It was just, Oh God. But he was always this poor kid. He was brilliant though, and he was creating his own web. And he was creating his costume and doing all that. And there was a sense in which like nobody knew who he was and so you're really back, I'm unclear about this and maybe they'll clarify it in the next movie.
Rick: I'm unclear if everybody had to forget that there's a Spider-Man or if they just had to forget that he was Spider-Man and who he was. I wasn't quite clear ‘because he goes out at the end, and he is Spider-Man again. Yeah.
Lyndsey: So, I, you might still know Spider-Man exists. Yeah.
Rick: But that's the way he's always been until very recently in like the Marvel Comics [00:27:00] universe is he is just this hero off by himself.
Rick: And there's been a number of times like the Fantastic Four kind of invited him in and then it didn't work out ‘because he had, he was too hotheaded and there's been times they've been invited into the Avengers, but he didn't want to give away his secret identity and that it's just always been like his him by himself.
Rick: And now he doesn't have all the tech to rely on anymore. I'm interested to see where the next movie will go, because it'll be much more like every hero and stuff. But yeah,
Lyndsey: no, that's true and it's, it is interesting. Yeah, and it doesn't feel. Like he's just supposed to be a kid. He's supposed to be Spider-Man.
Lyndsey: Yeah. And he's got like drones and it's weird. Yeah. Yeah. Super crazy. The, yeah, they've told this story several different ways. And you mentioned this one is maybe deviated a little bit with the Ironman element. What is your favorite in terms of the live actions? Do you have a favorite? That's,
Rick: man, that's a good question.
Rick: I want to say I have like my favorite movies; I think probably. The Toby McGuire won the second film with Doc O. Just the, [00:28:00] is it Spider-Man two, or I can't, yeah, just, it wasn't amazing. It was just Spider-Man two, but when that one happened, that one has always been like a real favorite of mine. I just felt like that one was great.
Rick: I didn't love. I didn't love the third one with Venom. There were just too many villain elements. There were parts of it I like. I think my favorite, although I really like Tom Holland a lot, he reminds me of Michael J. Fox. But I think personally my favorite actor, like just the strongest actor that's played in my think is Andrew Garfield and I, he's so good.
Rick: I love, I think just about everything I've ever seen Andrew Garfield in and in. He's so sincere. Yeah. And I don't even love. The movies of Spider-Man that he was in, but he's like my favorite Peter Parker as far as, he's
Lyndsey: really good. Yeah, he was my, I, he might have been my favorite in. In this movie, me Too, of the Peter Parkers.
Lyndsey: Like he just, he, the moment, obviously, I think everyone knows by this point my show's going to have spoiled. So, if you haven't seen a movie, don't [00:29:00] listen to the episode about it. But the moment when he gets to save MJ Yes. And his face and the way he played that moment was like, Oh yeah. He just, he conveys so much in such like a subtle, realistic way.
Lyndsey: Yeah. Like just you understand him and
Rick: he like, I think he just, he almost like whispers it like he's about to cry. Are you okay? ‘Because he remembers when Gwen wasn't Yeah. But he thought he saved it, and he didn't. And it was, that's a very emotional part of that movie for sure. And it is, and you think, oh no, MJs going to die like Quinn did.
Lyndsey: Yeah. And then there's that redemption. Yeah. He gets. He gets to, it doesn't obviously take away his loss completely, but. I'm sure he feels a little bit vindicated in. I saved her this time. Yeah. That was such a, yeah, I'd cried. I cried at
Rick: that moment. I really did. And he's such a, he's such a powerhouse of acting anyway, and he really immerses himself, Matt.
Rick: Yeah. And you could, I, there's something about the way that he immerses himself in those roles. [00:30:00] That's just really powerful. So that was the exact scene I always think of in this movie is when he catches MJ because there is, he's able to portray so much. I'm, I usually get a little, yeah. I get a little annoyed when Spider-Man's mask is off so much.
Rick: But I actually, I didn't mind in this, but he helpful it Helpful
Lyndsey: in this scene.
Rick: Yes, for sure. Because the look that he gave was so important. It's all it is to say in that very long answer I gave was, I would love it if they would revisit him in one of the spider universes and let him be Spider-Man again, because.
Lyndsey: I think he adds a lot of debt.
Lyndsey: Oh my gosh. He was, I feel like, yeah, I really enjoyed his movies. They were, I don't know if it was just the right, like I was a little bit too young for Toby McGuire. And I think I was, I'm similar in age to Andrew Garfield. So, like when those were coming out Yeah. He, they, he's playing in high school, but they were more my contemporary.
Lyndsey: Yeah. But yeah, I felt like he just brought some, he just, he conveys the feeling of his character's emotions in such a way that is. So [00:31:00] sincere that you feel it, but not in the forced drawn up kind of way. And I feel like he did a really great job on this one. My, one of my other favorite lines was, are you going to go into battle?
Lyndsey: Just like
Rick: a cool professor. I love that. Yeah. It's
Lyndsey: That might be the title of this episode. Are you going to go into battle dress like a cool youth pastor? That would be the
Rick: perfect title. Yeah. Cool. Youth pastor is a great line.
Lyndsey: The cool youth pastor, it's perfect. Yeah. So, I, yeah, definitely love Andrew Garfield.
Lyndsey: He's so funny. So good. Do we have a favorite villain?
Rick: They've always cast such remarkable actors in the roles of
Lyndsey: villains. They were so strong. I was struck with that when they're all like together. Yeah. Yeah.
Rick: And I. Yeah, I'm going to say probably Willem Defoe is, he didn't have as much time in this one probably, but I feel like the disservice they did to him in the first Spiderman movie was they put a mask on him because his real face is much scarier than that. [00:32:00]
Rick: Oh, my goodness.
Lyndsey: Yes. Oh, my goodness. And in this one, okay. Yeah, go ahead. He did. The moment when Peter is punching him, and he is staring him in the face back smiling. Yeah. While he's getting punched. I was like, Ugh. It's like chilling. Yeah. It was like, it was so creepy. He, yeah, he's definitely scary for sure.
Rick: And they're all so good actors. Alfred Mar, Alfred Molina is great, but there's something about Willem Defoe. When he takes on a character and you could see him be like, actually playing two different parts in, in just, yeah, the same, his posture is different in the same scene. It's like he's those two different characters.
Rick: And you go from feeling very empathetic for him to all of a sudden, oh man, this is like evil personified in, in the room. And then he's back and forth with that. So, I don't know that green goblin. Comics wise is my favorite villain. Or even in all the movies, but I think in this one, just from just a powerhouse actor.
Rick: Yeah. He's probably my favorite one in this film, I think.
Lyndsey: Yeah, so [00:33:00] he probably, yeah, I don't know if I can pick one. Honestly, I did like their choice to decide to let Jamie Fox to be cool in this one. Yeah. He was like the nerdy guy, and he did a good job. Yeah. Like it was, you were like embarrassed for him in the Amazing Spider-Man.
Lyndsey: You were like, you felt bad for him in this one. They're like, oh, but what if he's in a different universe? Yeah. And I'm like, this universe, he gets the energy and he's cool. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, who doesn't love watching Jamie Fox get to be Jamie Fox and be cool? Yeah. So it was, that was fun. Yeah. And he, but yeah, and they're also good.
Rick: He had a pretty good line at the end too, and he is talking to him. And he says, I always thought you were black. He said, because you're always there for the little guy and you're there for oppressed people. And then they have that conversation, which I think is a great nod to the Miles Morales Spider-Man.
Rick: He says, somewhere out there, there's got to be a black spider-Man. And that is also one of my, that was great. One of my favorite iterations. And that's, when you talk about Spider-Man movies, the That actually animated movie is maybe [00:34:00] my favorite Spider-Man movie of all of them. It's very good. Yeah. It's so good.
Rick: Even though it's not necessarily Peter Parker centered, but yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, that's why I'm looking forward to the other one that's coming out this summer too. Yeah.
Lyndsey: Yeah, no, I haven't watched that one in a while. I definitely need to rewatch it, but I just remember really enjoying that. It was such a different kind of story and I love movies where I go in and I have no idea what to expect. Yeah. And let me,
Rick: if you don't mind, let me ask you something too, because with your background and psychology and just the counseling aspect, I wonder if you had thought of the movie in this way?
Rick: Are, yeah. I'm sure you're familiar with. And Jungian psychology when we talk about the shadow self. We just, for listeners that may not be familiar and at least my understanding of it is ‘because we talk about it a lot in C P E, but the shadow self is a term used in Jungian psychology to describe the unconscious aspects of a person's personality that are typically repressed or denied.
Rick: And we had talked about before, how. This movie makes you look into those [00:35:00] shadow places that you want to deny and that you don't want to enter into and yet the whole idea of the shadow self is that if you can embrace it, it's either going to make you come out different and changed, and you'll probably change the whole world for the better.
Rick: Or if you come out of it, you might turn into the worst supervillain the worlds ever seen. So, there's this idea going on. In this film too, about people that go into that shadow place. And you have the ones who come out with the hero's journey like Spider-Man does. And these three Spider-Man who are trying to help Tom Holland, spider-Man come out of it.
Rick: Not staying in that dark place to, but to come out of it in the reality of, on the hopeful side of things. And then you have these villains that went the other direction when they embraced that, that shadowy side. And I almost feel like the movie itself, is maybe even in game and Infinity War and all that stuff, they’re almost like challenging us as a society to enter into those shadow places.
Rick: The, which I think is very good, but it's [00:36:00] very scary because some people come out of that shadow and it's going to change you for the good or for the bad. Oh yeah. You're going to be changed one way or the other. Un unfortunately, I think a lot of people come out for the worst. And we see people that are maybe not super villains, but they've embraced that.
Rick: Yeah. Evil
Lyndsey: side of them. Yeah. That that bitterness or that anger. Yeah. Yeah. And I think for me, yeah, I think that idea of what we let have the last word feels important in that struggle. And I think definitely having support as you're walking through that or going to those darker place makes a huge difference.
Lyndsey: Or even allowing yourself support. Cause sometimes we choose not to. Ask for it or allow it in, and I think that makes a big difference. Yeah, it's definitely, it's like a resiliency question, right? Uhhuh, can we hold this heaviness and still believe or hope? Can you look and hold onto enough of God's goodness?
Lyndsey: Yeah. To choose grace [00:37:00] and hope. And I think that's we I life, like you said, suffering is not avoidable, so you're going to have to face it at some point. I think it's. It's a matter of do we choose to run and let it catch us on its terms? Or do we turn around and say, all right, today's the day, let's go.
Lyndsey: Yeah. And it's scary and that's hard, but I think there's, when we make those more deliberate decisions to engage with things, we have a better chance of. Deciding the outcome for ourselves and how we choose to carry those things. Yeah. It's messy work. Yeah. But it's
Rick: important work. He, in the beginning, wants to let go of things, and that's how everything gets messed up in the first place.
Rick: Dr. Strange is casting this spell to make everybody. Forget, but then he goes, oh no, but I want to hang on to this and this person needs to remember well, that this needs to hang on here and I need to let go. I can't let go of this. And it just keeps messing up the spell. He's not willing to let go of everything to just be who he is without all these other people knowing in the midst of it, [00:38:00] which is understandable.
Rick: You need those family connections. At the end of the film, he absolutely realizes if he doesn't, Make this very self-sacrificial. Choice. That's going to cause him to firmly stand on who he is and be completely self-differentiated. Then everything's going to fall apart, like the whole universe is going to crash.
Rick: Yeah. So, it's only at the end of the film that kind of, he has entered into that shadow self. He's entered into the really dark, hard places and he has decided to embrace it and say, okay, yeah, this is the only way forward is for me. I can stay here and this what I want. And be selfish and hang onto it.
Rick: Yeah. And make everybody around me suffer because of it, or I can make the really hard choice. And so, he enters into that really hard place of everybody's going to forget about him know he has to stand on his own and be just who he is in the midst of all that. Yeah. And he can't depend on what everybody else's reaction to it is going to be if they're willing to [00:39:00] walk away.
Rick: And I love how at the end, even in that regard, he has a moment where he's going to tell MJ, who, by the way, MJ, she even becomes more hopeful at the end. She's not so much about disappointment anymore, she's about hopefulness for the future. And Peter Parker is about to open his mouth and tell her this is everything that's happened.
Rick: But he has decided that he's going to let it unfold the way it needs to, rather than try to force something and try to manipulate another person to do that. So, there's just. Yeah, this movie is so complex.
Lyndsey: Humans are complex. And there's all these other layers that maybe we thought of. Maybe we didn't think of all of them.
Lyndsey: And I just, yeah. No, it's definitely, there's even the thing of Dr. Strange says if you help them, rather than just send them back right now, you can either basically help the villains or save everyone is this dichotomy and we've got that like trolley problem, and do you save this many people? Yeah.
Lyndsey: For the sake of this many people. And, but then there's [00:40:00] that truth that we have of this value of life. These are still people, and we don't know that I couldn't, like we know if I send them back right now, they'll die. Like I know that. Yeah, but I don't know necessarily the outcome. And he kind of bets on hope that's on.
Lyndsey: Maybe it doesn't have to be this or that. Like maybe it can be different, but I know that I need to choose. I need to choose kindness. Yeah. And help. And I just, yeah. I also think the cool thing is about Spider-Man as a character is he's so smart it wouldn't work if he wasn't also super smart. Yeah. He's a genius.
Lyndsey: Yes. He got these powers, but he's like this crazy genius and honestly, most of what saves the day. This movie is his crazy genius. Yeah. Ability to like, Construct all these solutions. Yeah. He had to be able to swing around and get them where they needed to go. But I think that's super cool too, that he's he is just like stay in school kids.
Lyndsey: Yeah. Cause you can be smart like me, you maybe [00:41:00] can't stick to the walls. Yeah. But you could maybe get into a good school and do some really cool stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And no, this is a really good, complex story. Yeah, for
Rick: sure. Can I say one more thing too that I think. Yeah, maybe gets overlooked, but it really meant a lot to me.
Rick: And maybe it's just because I'm a 45-year-old man now, and I'm closer to Toby's age than I am the other actors at this point. But at the end of the film, when Tom Holland, he's the young impetuous one, he's ready for revenge. You killed my aunt May; I'm going to kill you back. And there literally is that part where, Spider-Man's fighting against himself at the end because Toby steps in the older, the wiser, the more the one who understands the consequences of actions.
Rick: He literally knows what it's like to kill the green goblin, and he knows that it didn't fix anything, and so he steps in to try to help. The younger Spider-Man enter into this more peaceful route, knowing it's still going to cost him. He's standing there. And I'm expecting the whole time, [00:42:00] whatever Toby steps in front of him, green goblin's going to stab him.
Rick: Yeah. And yet he still steps between him and so I, I love that we have these three iterations of Spider-Man and they're all like a very young one, kind of one in the middle, and then the one that's middle age aspect, where hopefully there's more wisdom involved along the way. Yeah. But I just think of the different ways that like, Wow.
Rick: You're literally getting to see this metaphor play out of a hero fighting his own inner self, like at different stages. Yeah, and I love that wisdom that also says maybe. Maybe the best thing is not to kill our enemies, but maybe it is to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute them. I know the movie's not explicit about that, but that is what it is in acting before our eyes.
Rick: Yes. Like it doesn't mean we, it doesn't mean we don't do all we can to stop them from doing the evil, but why do we always jump to the conclusion that the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to just kill him? Yeah. Like our,
Lyndsey: yeah. Like just have a bigger, faster gun. Yeah,
Rick: exactly. Yeah.
Rick: That's. Not, can we not be more creative and [00:43:00] think about what could actually lead to the redemption of this place?
Lyndsey: And yeah, let's look at what's creating villains. Yeah. Let's look at, let's also talk about what is creating the perpetuators of this. Yeah. And can we fix some of those systems too? Because angry, violent men, were scared little boys. Yeah. Let's help those. Let's fix our schooling system or our, the way we allow. Men and boys to show up in the world. It's that whoever the other person is, they're not just this, we tend to one dimensionalize them, they're bad and they're this thing, but they're a complex person that something led to this.
Lyndsey: Yeah. What led to this? Can we insert something else into that equation that maybe yields a different outcome? Yeah, and it. Yes. Yeah, and that's, I liked what you said ab Oh, go ahead.
Rick: No, I was just going to say that's literally what we talk about too, when we start looking at, in the psychology books that I'm reading right now, is you need those when you're a child.
Rick: You need those black and white [00:44:00] aspects. This is good, this is bad, and it's that. But a sign of maturity is actually leaving those categories behind because there are much more, there are much more areas that are in the gray. When it comes to how we relate to people. But children, like at a certain age, they get, they're not going to be able to understand that yet.
Rick: So, they have to be in that black and white place. But as we mature, we can start to see that, oh, there are some reasons why this bad guy is acting bad right now, and maybe there are ways that if we can help him change. His thinking, a literal idea of repentance is literally like leaving that shadow part, like entering into it and then saying, these are the destructive places in my life.
Rick: How can I help you walk away from those instincts and walk away from those things, and you stop having that conversation of just seeing it as black and it like, you're all good, you're all bad. That all of us have this capacity in ourselves. And I, you were about to say something else, but I just, I loved what you were saying, and I wanted to drop that in there as well.
Rick: Oh yeah. Because it's a real sign. It's, it [00:45:00] discourages me sometimes that we're not more mature in our thinking, that we can't think beyond as adults, just these black and white areas. Because if we could mature a little bit in our thinking about people and how complex we are. We might actually be able to do something about the problems we face, but until we're trapped in, as long as we're trapped into these categories, good, bad, Republican, democrat, all these, if we can't ever get out of those silos, there'll never be any change.
Rick: Yeah. Us
Lyndsey: and them, that kind of, yeah. Yeah. No, I completely resonated with that as well. I remember I; it was probably three or four years after college, and I posted something. I had a couple. Of friends that went to the Women's March in Kansas City, and I tweeted something about being proud of my friends who went or whatever, and someone Sub tweeted about me who, someone from high school about how I just had people just turning their back on [00:46:00] everything they've ever believed in.
Lyndsey: And I'm like, I think it would be completely ridiculous to think that 14-year-old me had it all figured out. Let's just be real. Yeah. She didn't know a lot of things. Yeah. And to think that. I think that way about a lot of stuff in terms of our beliefs about certain things or the way we choose to handle things in society.
Lyndsey: We would never say, we've arrived at medical research, let's stop trying to improve. Yeah. We would never say 1950s medicine was it, or even farther back. We would never say that was it. We should stop. That was the most correct. Best way to do things, but we do that with a lot of other things. Yeah. We don't think that there's any room for new knowledge or new understanding or that maybe past us didn't have all the parts and so I, I feel like yeah, being open to that gray and being open to, I really believe all truth is God's truth and being open to that truth way it test it for sure, but it's, if you really drill all the way down, it's never going to conflict with it.
Lyndsey: Yeah. [00:47:00] Because. He is truth. And I also was resonating with what you're saying about those, the different Spider-Man at different stages of their life. And Matt and I, when we were watching it, he's, you've got them in all these stages of gr you've got one that's resolved it a little bit.
Lyndsey: And that's Toby. And he said, and then you've got them. Andrews that's still steeping in it. And he's like still in the pain of it. A little bit. Yeah. And it's a little fresher for him. And then it's all just happening right then to Tom Holland's character and them trying to, with where they are in their journey, help him along.
Lyndsey: And I also think too, it's this idea of we need community and vulnerability in that community to, to help us not. Make those choices or to help us work through those things. And I think his character getting the community of other Spider-Man Yeah. Somehow, which is an odd, it's an odd community, but Trinity, what he needed.
Lyndsey: It's the weird trinity. But yeah, we're, again, to [00:48:00] that point though, we are built to be in relationship. The very nature is relationship and to be open to experiencing and thinking about those things, but also to know we need other people in those thoughts and yeah. Journeys. I
Rick: guess I, yeah, and I just, I want to just add one thing.
Rick: I know we're probably getting to the end of our conversation here, but when you just said that about needing people, if you remember in the film too, whenever we first are introduced to the other Spider-Man, when they're coming into, I guess it's Ned's house where they're coming through the port, it is N's house.
Rick: Yeah. And I think it's Toby that he says it, and I heard it a little different this time when he says, I just had this feeling that your friend needed me. Like he, when he, we, they're talking, he's talking about the Tom Holland Spider-Man, but he's saying that's not your friend when he sees the other guy, but there, yeah. But there was that real poignant moment. There was something about Toby and the way he played it in this movie, it was so much, it was a lot. It was just a lot more mature. It was a 40 something man. Yeah. Looking at this [00:49:00] character, and I love the idea that he, in a sense, that's what we do as human beings, and it's that divine spark that God puts in each of us.
Rick: We can sometimes tell when. That other person is in need of us in some ways and there's something that draws us to them in, in, in our grief and our hurt. And I just really love that it was completely appropriate that he said that. Andrew said to him, you're going to go and de Bell dress like a cool youth pastor because in some ways.
Lyndsey: he was being the cool youth pastor of the
Rick: moment.
Rick: Yeah. May maybe a little mature than, that's funny than most pastors, youth pastors that I've known over the years. But he definitely, that's fair. That's very fair. Including myself when I was one, but oh my gosh. But yeah, that, that was really fair. A beautiful moment now that I think about it, where he just says, just very, calmly in the way that he says it.
Rick: It was just like; I just had a feeling that he needs me. I just need to be there for him. Yeah. And then they did, they just, again, full circle back to that scene on the rooftop where the, all of them [00:50:00] are together and they're just commiserating in their grief and they're sadness and yeah. Holding each other in, in, in the midst of that grief.
Rick: It's powerful and I think we're, it is, we're in need of it more than we realize. It's a shame that it takes a Spider-Man movie for us to connect on those levels sometimes, because we just need them as human beings. Yeah. But I wonder if a lot of people had no idea of the emotional roller coaster they were going to be thrown into.
Rick: They went to that film. Oh my
Lyndsey: gosh. Now I wasn't ready for it. Yeah, I definitely was not. But like you said, it did resonate. I think too, the timing of when it came out was huge. I, one other just final of my notes of moments I wanted to talk about before we maybe wrap things up was, I don't remember what he says.
Lyndsey: I think, what does he say that does? Andrew Garfield's? It's character. He says something negative about himself. Was it like I'm lame or something? Yeah. Yeah.
Rick: They just, and then No, you are. And then
Lyndsey: not like to, again, maybe being the cool youth pastor, I think it's Toby's character. He's, but I want to come back to [00:51:00] that.
Lyndsey: Yeah. And they really, it's funny in the moment, but I was like, I am that friend. I, because again, I have the counseling background, I'm like actually even. The jokes you're making are telling me about your self-talk. And we need to talk about that because it's not good for you. And you are better than that and you deserve to talk to yourself better than that.
Lyndsey: And it was a funny moment ‘cause they're Spiderman, they like doing that. Yeah. But it does matter. That's something too that I think, but we, but it is, again, that's a messy thought to have. You have to unpack why am I talking to myself that way? And that's a little bit more part of that shadow. Like, why do I feel that way?
Lyndsey: Why do I think that way? And we don't want to look at it. It's just easier to just say, oh, I was just kidding. Yeah. Kind of thing. But PSA, self-talk matters even if you think you're being funny. Yep. So that was one thing I just wanted to throw out there, but that's true. Yeah. This is a very, yeah. Emotionally rich movie.
Lyndsey: This has been such a fun conversation. Is there anything that we didn't get to? I know we didn't really march through the [00:52:00] movie chronologically, but I feel like thematically, yeah, we weaved through a lot of things in a fun way. Anything you want to touch on before. We wrap up so
Rick: I, we could probably just go on forever about different things ‘cause it's, you probably could, because I think the thing that makes a good film is similar to the thing that makes a good song or good book you have just a lot of universal themes that are going to be true no matter who you are.
Rick: Yeah. And so, I think they were very wise to put that, put the writing first in this movie, I felt like at some, yes. Sometimes yes. He sometimes it all just turns into there's just going to be a big dumb action scene at the end. And that's how all, oh gosh. Yeah. And there was to an extent, but this movie, it was a movie.
Rick: This movie choreographed
Lyndsey: like thoughtful
Rick: one. Yeah. This one a lot deeper than most of the superhero films do for sure. So, I'll give it two thumbs up for whatever that is. And just the fact that I feel like we haven't even, we haven't even drained the full depths of, we haven't gotten to the bottom of the barrel, so to speak, of what we could talk about in this movie.
Rick: That's just a sign of a good film for sure. [00:53:00] Yeah. So, I'm not, it is, I'm not sure if we did the other Spider-Man movies, if we would have this kind of conversation for sure. So
Lyndsey: I don't know. It definitely did feel like a very intentionally emotionally sensitive, you talked about putting the writing first.
Lyndsey: Yeah. That is Huge for me. I like superhero movies. Some of the Captain America ones are just like words between punch scenes. Yeah. And it's, I'm like, ah, I don't know. Yeah. I can't get into this. But there was just like, everyone was complex, everyone was well thought out and realistic in their humanity.
Lyndsey: Obviously these are crazy super villains and stuff, but their humanity was believable. You could, like you said, you could empathize with the green goblin at points. Just that careful construction of story and the arc of like hope and choosing not to let the bad thing make you bad, let the bad thing make you bitter or have the last word in putting other people before yourself I think are really.
Lyndsey: Strong themes in this, [00:54:00] and I think, I hope there's another movie because I hope Tom Holland's character doesn't just have to live out the rest of his days in obscurity for all we know. Yeah. But yeah, no, this was great. And like you said, there’s so much more we could’ve dissected this until we're blue in the face but yeah.
Lyndsey: No, this was such a great conversation. I super appreciate you being willing to have this conversation with me. Like you're, you brought it, like you totally brought it, and this was so fun. I love it when someone else is willing to like, get down in the weeds, get into that dark stuff with me. Because I think it's important, and we talked a little bit about my heart for this show. Is just, that people can learn something and maybe think a different thought and maybe start to learn how to see some more of these truths that. We can learn from and learn how to love and treat people better, even just from watching a Spider-Man movie.
Lyndsey: Yeah. So, I appreciate you having that conversation with me [00:55:00] and hopefully, we'll, we won't wait like another 10 years to talk to
Rick: each other. Yeah, let's not do that.
Lyndsey: Thanks again for joining me today, guys. I hope you'll find some time. To think about what we talked about today. There was a lot of good stuff in today's episode. And remember that no one is ever really lost. And maybe think about the ways in which you have not been as one of my favorite podcasts, puts it loving your enemies, your opposites, and your irritants.
Lyndsey: Or maybe today's episode reminded you of some grief or shadow places in your life that you've not spent time processing. Or maybe you have but you haven't asked for the support you need to process those wounds. I hope this will be the encouragement for you to take those steps. You need to get the support and do the work that you need to do to live a whole life.
Lyndsey: As always, thanks so much for joining me. [00:56:00] I hope.
Lyndsey: you'll join us again next time. If you do the show, it would be super awesome. If you wouldn't mind leaving a review or even just a rating, that would be fantastic. But like I said, till next time.
